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 Conversations Toward a New World View: A Culture Built Upon Authentic Power 
Interview with Gary Zukav
   as interviewed by Russell E. DiCarlo

Gary Zukav is author of the "Dancing Wu Li Masters" which won the 1979 American Book Award In Science. A graduate of Harvard University, he has also authored the acclaimed, "The Seat of The Soul" which describes the evolutionary journey of humanity from external power to authentic power based upon the perceptions and values of the soul.

DiCarlo: It seems that there are more than a few people today who, after observing the many breakdowns that are happening-in government, in education, in health care, in the family, in business-feel that a collapse of Western civilization is immenent. Surprisingly, you have a rather different assessment....

Zukav: Yes. In the larger, evolutionary context in which these changes are taking place, the disintegration of our social structures is a profoundly positive phenomenon. Without understanding the larger context, it is easy to mistake these breakdowns as pathologies.

The evolutionary transition that humanity is in now has no precedent. There is nothing in our past from which we can extrapolate our future. It is not only unprecedented-it is as significant as the genesis of the human species. This evolutionary transition is one from a five sensory species that is evolving through the exploration of physical reality with the five senses to a species that is evolving through the alignment of the personality with the soul and that is not limited to the five senses. The before and after circumstances are very clear. In our before picture, humanity, for the most part, was limited to the five senses. I say "for the most part" because there have always been multi-sensory humans among us. They are those after whom our religions are named, but for the most part, humankind was limited in its perceptions to the five senses. As it evolved through the exploration of physical reality, the human species developed the ability to manipulate and control those things that the five senses can detect, those things which appear to be external.

In other words, our former evolutionary modality was the pursuit of external power-the ability to manipulate and control what appear to be external. Our present is much different. Humankind-all five and one-half billion of us-are beginning to move beyond the limitations of the five senses. Becoming multi-sensory means being able to obtain data that the five senses cannot provide.

DiCarlo: Sounds like your referring to intuition?

Zukav: Exactly. Five sensory humans are not much interested in intuition, but multi-sensory humans are very interested in it because intuition is central to the multi-sensory human. Intuition is the voice of the non-physical world. As we become multi-sensory, we become able to distinguish between personality and soul.

DiCarlo: What do you mean by personality?

Zukav: Personality is that part of an individual that was born into time, matures in time and dies in time.

DiCarlo: And the soul?

Zukav: The soul is that part of the individual that is immortal, that evolves in eternity.

DiCarlo: Recently, there has been much more emphasis on the reality and substance of the soul, and I am thinking of the work that is being done in transpersonal psychology and medicine. Why the sudden interest?

Zukav: Because we are becoming multi-sensory.

DiCarlo: Wouldn't you say that in the past the soul has been taken for granted, "Well, yes we all have a soul," or so our religions have told us, but it's never been described in great detail, nor has the relationship between the soul and the physical self that we normally identify ourselves to be, been adequately explained. It has not been a real factor in one's daily life.

Zukav: Yes, there are people in religious orders who take the soul quite seriously, but for the most part, we do not, and by "we" I mean most humans. We talk about the soul in Sunday school but we don't give it much thought afterwards. We believe, no matter how much we talk about the soul in church, that consciousness and responsibility end with biological death. If we really believed that we were responsible after we leave the Earth for everything that we create while we are on the Earth, we would create very differently.

DiCarlo: Do you think there is a lot of conflict between what we want as personalities and what we want as souls?

Zukav: Yes. The degree of that conflict is the degree of pain that exists in your life. The match, or mismatch, between the wants of your personality and the needs of your soul also determines the degree of meaning, or lack of it, that you experience.

DiCarlo: Is it possible to align the interests of the personality and soul?

Zukav: Yes. That is now our evolutionary path. When a personality is authentically empowered, it's interests are aligned with the interests of its soul. The personality usually wants an attractive mate, money, a comfortable place to live, a healthy body-but the Universe gives us what the soul needs, in every case, in every instance, at every moment. Understanding this will help you to find the meaning in your experience no matter how difficult it is.

There is a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is merely pain, but suffering is pain with meaning. There is a reason for your suffering that is worthy of your suffering. Because it has meaning, your suffering is acceptable and it is endurable.

DiCarlo: How might this alignment be accomplished?

Zukav: Aligning personality with soul is is done through responsible choice with the assistance and guidance of non-physical guides and Teachers. To a five sensory personality, talk about non-physical reality and non-physical guides and Teachers is, literally, non-sensical. Five sensory personalities are still living their lives solely based upon the data that they receive from the five senses.

More and more people are now leaving behind the limitations of the five senses. Eventually, within the span of several human generations, all of humankind will be multi-sensory. That is how significant our evolutionary transition is. It is the transition from a five-sensory humanity that is evolving through the pursuit of external power-exploration of physical reality through the five senses-to a multi-sensory humanity that is evolving through the pursuit of authentic power-the alignment of the personality with the soul through responsible choice with the assistance and guidance of non-physical guides and Teachers. This is transforming everything.

DiCarlo: What exactly do you mean by responsible choice?

Zukav: Responsible choice means making choices that create consequences for which you are willing to assume responsibility. Whenever you make a decision, and act upon that decision, you create consequences. The consequences that you create reflect the intention that you hold when you perform the action. Responsible choice requires that you become aware of your intentions. That requires that you become aware of all of the different parts of yourself. Many of these parts operate outside your field of awareness. In turn, that means that you must become conscious of everything that you are feeling. This is difficult because there is so much pain and fear in our world, but all of this is necessary in order to become authentically empowered.

You create consequences no matter what you choose. If you do not choose consciously, you do not create consciously. It's as simple as that. You create, but you create unconsciously. What you create unconsciously is what you have created in the past. If you do not choose to create consciously, you will continue to create the same painful experiences that you have created previously. You will continue to do that until, in this lifetime or another, you understand the origin of the pain that you are experiencing. Then you will change. The change will be thorough, complete, and permanent.

That could take a long time. It could take a lifetime. It could take more lifetimes than one. As we become multi-sensory, we enable accelerated spiritual growth. That is what consciousness provides-accelerated spiritual growth. You can look ahead at what you are going to produce if you create again in anger; if you create again in fear; if you create again in jealousy. You can decide that you want to create differently, and then set the intention to do that.

You have the ability, for example, to set the intention to create harmony-or at least not create further discord. You can choose to cooperate instead of to compete. You can choose to share instead of hoard. You can choose to revere Life instead of exploit Life. You can choose to be interested in and support the growth of others instead of exploiting others. All of these choices produce different consequences than the choices that you've been making in the past.

DiCarlo: So what do you mean when you use the word intention?

Zukav: Intention is the quality of consciousness that you bring to an action.

DiCarlo: You have commented that if you have a healthy personality, then you really don't know where the personality ends and the soul begins....Would you view this process of becoming multi-sensory as representing an expansion of our being so that as we live our life as our soul, this becomes our primary identity?

Zukav: Yes! Yes!

DiCarlo: But the experience would not be one in which the person would feel as though he or she is submitting or surrendering to a higher outside authority?

Zukav: It's becoming all that you are. There is no higher authority when it comes to your decisions. Only you can make them. As you become aligned with your soul, you become who you are. You fulfill yourself and those around you. You do not harm-it's not a part of your consciousness. You are a torch that has been ignited. You are a beacon that shines. You have no fear. You care for Life. You care for those around you. You care for the Earth. You revere Life. You value it simply because it is.

DiCarlo: I find it remarkable that what you would characterize as an authentically empowered human being, others have referred to as "a soul infused human being."

Zukav: How beautiful. ....But is it really remarkable? These truths belong to the Universe. As we become multi-sensory, we will understand them more fully. We are in the process of creating a world that is based upon these understandings. These other people didn't make them up and I didn't make them up, either. They come from the Universe.

DiCarlo: How might this transition from external power to authentic power affect, let's say, our economic system?

Zukav: The transformation in the human species is changing all of its social structures, including economics. The economics in which current commercial activities are embedded is based on the assumption of scarcity and the orientation of exploitation. Economic theory assumes that it is natural for a significant portion of the human family to be in need, to be lacking the basic necessities of life, in addition to many things that are necessary for physical comfort.

This perception is contrary to the reality of the Universe in which we are living and growing. As we become multi-sensory, this becomes more and more evident. The Universe is compassionate and abundant. It is alive, wise and eternal. It provides what each soul needs at each moment.

To a five-sensory human all of that is nonsense. It doesn't relate to the five senses. To a multi-sensory human, it is appearant. Whatever economics we develop in our future, it will reflect the perceptions of the soul. The soul understands that this is an abundant Universe-the grass grows again every spring. We are always given opportunities to grow and to learn. If we don't make use of them, we are given others. Ask yourself, for example, how many times you have been given the opportunity to love and to be loved, and how many times you have squandered those opportunities. They will come again. That is the nature of the compassionate Universe of which we are a part.

There is no scarcity in this new perception, so whatever economics we will develop, it will be based upon the assumption of abundance.

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